Curse

aapo · Dec 25, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Would you play GW at all if you couldn't save your progress?

- Sign of a good game: it doesn't matter what part you play, if the gameplay remains interesting and fun. I've never understood why some people like repetitive gameplay. When next level is beyond slaying the same boss thirty times, I just conclude the game finished. Yeah, so you could get +5 damage for what purpose? Perhaps to slay the same boss you've been slaying for tiny bit less round time? No thank you.

A11Eur0 · Dec 25, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Skill>Time only works when skill is involved. GW PvE has no skill anymore. To say that only hardcore no-lifer gamers could sit down and complete UW, FoW, or DoA is a joke. You've clearly underestimated the stupidity of the PvE community. If you need examples go find old mallyx threads.

The whole idea of 'omgzor u duntz has2use da builds if'n u dunt wunt 22222!!!' is completely retarded. I don't use them because I don't go for the fastest times or speedruns. It's still possible to do all the areas in a reasonable time without them - but if you ARE going for speed runs or PUGing, you need to use them. Being a necessity for a PUG is a huge problem. Running the exact same builds everywhere because they are that OP only encourages lack of skillful play. See 'guilds that declare themselves good' for examples of such.

I like how you take my claims and put them in tard-speak like you're associating me with internet elitists. I'm not 12 years old. I don't have all day to play this game sometimes. "If you ARE going for speed runs or puging, you need to use them." Exactly my point. What's so hard to understand here? Speed runs are speed runs precisely because of the speed involved and the builds required to make them fast. Pugs use easy builds because they work more often than balanced builds. You're not so dependent on every player in the group..in a balanced team, if someone leaves, your group is crippled. Less healing, less damage, less utility, and when someone leaves a balanced team, that's the end of the run, because people lose their momentum and rage. If someone rages in a cryway team, life goes on, but just a little slower. People leave PUGs all the time. If it cripples the group, it makes that group unlikely to group up with that team build again. That's just how it is. If you want to play balanced, you need dedicated players, and you just can't guarantee that in a pug. Facts of life. If they nerf SF, UW will be all normal mode clears or duo farming. You won't find HM pugs, and if you do they won't succeed. UW will die, ectos will jump back up in price so the casual players can't obtain them anymore, and we'll be back to square one. The only people who win there are the farmers, power traders, and hardcore gamers. Casual players...buh bye.

Joseph Spiritmaster · Dec 25, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

This goes back to the days of DOOM. Where people would go into Nightmare difficulty, type in iddqd, then plow through it all with the super powerful weapons against the still super weak enemies - but there being millions of respawning enemies.

People use cheats not to beat the game fast, but to wtfpwn others. That is why people like spike builds.

If this is done, the same needs to be done to:

[Spell Breaker], ["Save Yourselves!"], [Obsidian Flesh], ["There's Nothing To Fear!"] and skills of the such. You cannot kill just one god mode while leaving the others free.

Also, no need to kill and bury skills, just change their usage. Like for Shadow Form, make it immune to damage only (i.e., take 0 damage from damage - so spells, conditions, hexes, etc. still hurt, but you don't loose actual health) and remove the "loose all but xyz health" upon ending it. That way, with it still maintainable like it is, it won't kill someone but it also makes it a lot less farm build worthy.

Or, you can make Deadly Paradox not work for elite enchantment skills.

That way, they are still usable, but not "god mode" skills.

Alright, if read the first post, and then scanned through a lot of other ones, this one is only one that reaallly yelled "Make some random thing about this..."

ANet can go around nerfing those skills into a bloody pulp, but then, players actually would require skill *gasp* SKILL? in the Present Day guild wars?? Sadly, with the SF Buff/nerf/rebuff/slightnerf, this makes things difficult. ANet can't just go nerfing SB, SY!, Obby Flesh (btw, wth is this skill doing in this list, barely used anymore!) and TNtF! nerfing these skills (except flesh) would make a lot of people angry, which ANET wouldn't like. Simply, Kronos couldnt take down all the gods in one game.

SF/cryway is fine, if you like that one shot one kill thing. This style of play is like taking an orange, and squeezing out all the juice in the sink. I would rather like the "oldschool" Obbyflesh tanks, defy pain tanks, etc. If SF was to be changed, it should be like an assassin version of Mist form, cant do damage, dont take damage. Makes it more of a tanking skill, (with this, Sliver would NOT work, Perma Scythe, etc). Tanking w/ an SF would be fine.

(Nerfing Cryway and SF, will make the game require a little more skill and make it more fun imo )

[DE] · Dec 25, 2008, 01:33 AM // 01:33

quote war go

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I like how you take my claims and put them in tard-speak like you're associating me with internet elitists. I'm not 12 years old. I don't have all day to play this game sometimes.

If you don't want me to do that then stop writing dumb statements

Quote:

"If you ARE going for speed runs or puging, you need to use them." Exactly my point. What's so hard to understand here? Speed runs are speed runs precisely because of the speed involved and the builds required to make them fast. Pugs use easy builds because they work more often than balanced builds.

Do you spot the problem? Speed runs are generally associated with risky builds and skillful play so that they can complete the mission in the fastest time. Pugs are generally known for running lots of defense to compensate for player skill, and thus taking longer to do missions - but still completing them. When the two overlap and you have pugs using speedrun builds and doing missions in fast times - you have a problem

Quote:

You're not so dependent on every player in the group..in a balanced team, if someone leaves, your group is crippled. Less healing, less damage, less utility, and when someone leaves a balanced team, that's the end of the run, because people lose their momentum and rage. If someone rages in a cryway team, life goes on, but just a little slower.

What? With balance even if you lose 1 player you can continue to play. I don't know what kind of builds you consider balance but whatever. That doesn't mean everyone doesn't have an important or vital role in a balanced group. In cryway the vital roles are duplicated x4 or 5, making them expendable. Both groups are just as likely to rage quit in a PUG. If a monk is gone both will probably quit. A midline player for balanced is roughly the equivalent of cry'rs. So I'm not sure why you say that people in balanced are all more likely to rage quit. Losing 1-2 people on both teams will hurt them but it won't be the end of the world for either.

Quote:

People leave PUGs all the time. If it cripples the group, it makes that group unlikely to group up with that team build again. That's just how it is. If you want to play balanced, you need dedicated players, and you just can't guarantee that in a pug.

See above regarding people leaving groups. Ideally, balanced should be able to be run successfully in PUGS. Anet provided tons of useful, good, but not OP skills before PvE skills came out. The PvE community had it's head to far up it's on ass to realize that and continued to pump out gimmicks. If this wasn't the case you'd be seeing a completely different side of PvE pugs these days. Once again, see old mallyx threads for examples.

Quote:

Facts of life. If they nerf SF, UW will be all normal mode clears or duo farming. You won't find HM pugs, and if you do they won't succeed. UW will die, ectos will jump back up in price so the casual players can't obtain them anymore, and we'll be back to square one. The only people who win there are the farmers, power traders, and hardcore gamers. Casual players...buh bye.

No. The community will just go back to tank'n'spank for pugs, which isn't much better but at least than speedclear builds aren't overlapping with pugs.

Lishy · Dec 25, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

/me feeds the qq troll on perma form

Unreal Havoc · Dec 25, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

All I can say is when it takes a PUG group less than half an hour to complete an "elite" area there's something wrong with the game.

[DE] · Dec 25, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

All I can say is when it takes a PUG group less than half an hour to complete an "elite" area there's something wrong with the game.

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner

vandevere · Dec 25, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

All I can say is when it takes a PUG group less than half an hour to complete an "elite" area there's something wrong with the game.

Why?

Do we actually have a caste system in place here where the lowly under-class is forbidden to set foot in certain areas lest they attract the ire of the elite class?

Gift3d · Dec 25, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

If this is done, the same needs to be done to:

[Spell Breaker], ["Save Yourselves!"], [Obsidian Flesh], ["There's Nothing To Fear!"] and skills of the such. You cannot kill just one god mode while leaving the others free.

...Do you even play Guild Wars? Just asking.

Unreal Havoc · Dec 25, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

Why?

Do we actually have a caste system in place here where the lowly under-class is forbidden to set foot in certain areas lest they attract the ire of the elite class?

No, but that doesn't mean completion should be given to them on a silver platter either.

When there's no challenge in what's supposed to be an elite area within the game it makes you wonder why everyone is left feeling that they want something more.

[DE] · Dec 25, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

What if the NBA tailored their rules so that 5th graders could compete and win against professional NBA teams.

Seems pretty ridiculous right?

Well that's what Anet did with Guild Wars PvE.

A11Eur0 · Dec 25, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

Why?

Do we actually have a caste system in place here where the lowly under-class is forbidden to set foot in certain areas lest they attract the ire of the elite class?

Apparently the lowly proles not in 1337 guilds need to stick to their bergen farming where they belong. :\

As far as the NBA analogy goes...lol. Seriously, I lol'd. Because the only way that analogy works is if the NBA started training said 5th graders to play at the same level as the NBA pros.

If a 5th grader could play as well as an NBA pro, why not allow them to play?

It's not Anet's fault that the playerbase felt the need to create these gimmick builds. If anything, talk to the players posting these gimmick builds to PVX for the whole world to see, resulting in their overpopularity and subsequent nerfing by Anet catering to the vocal minority bitching and moaning because their elite achievements in the game were somehow lessened by the less-worthy pugs completing the same things in less time.

Here's a thought: maybe some of these players running these gimmick builds have been playing this game from the beginning, have the ability to create their own builds and run them effectively, but frankly don't care to?

I'll say it one more time: IT'S NOT HURTING YOU. Not in any way, shape or form. SF farming, UW farming, etc etc has been around for a long long long time. Ectos are stable. If you want to complain about items being cheapened by overfarming, point in the right direction: Zkeys and MAT predictions. People with multiple free/cheap accounts get hundreds of keys per month. With these keys they have the opportunity to get high priced rare items from the zchest. These items can be sold for more zkeys, thus more items....etc, and these items drop in value because of the saturation of the market. Talk to 600/smite farmers running dungeons for the high-dollar rare skins, also saturating the market. SF did/does very little in the way of the GW economy, because the things that SF can farm are stable in price regardless. Anguish gemstones, ectos, obsi shards(have been climbing), gold unid's, and event drops. The only things that dropped in value are the non-stackable golds and rare skins because they don't have the bulk ever-renewing demand of ectos, shards, anguish gems, gold unid's, and event consumables.

Seriously...get off your high horse and understand that SF isn't hurting anything, so there's really no point to QQ'ing about its existence, other than your inability to find a decent pug. lol

Avarre · Dec 25, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Wonderful, another thread of kids yelling 'IM NOT TOUCHING YOUUUUUUUU' to support invincibility in a tactical game.

What a fine Christmas present.

Tyla · Dec 25, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

Why?

Do we actually have a caste system in place here where the lowly under-class is forbidden to set foot in certain areas lest they attract the ire of the elite class?

Nowhere did he impose upon this very thread that one should not be allowed to enter an area whatsoever. He merely brought up the statement that when people can clear areas given the title, "elite", within a time span of thirty minutes and taking use of such a low skill level, a problem emitting there is.

AKB48 · Dec 25, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

I know whacha gonna say kid: BOOHOO, Megaton got blown up... no wait, wrong game.
Anyway, so I got bored on stomping on peoples' faces and epic fails, and decided to do some PvE for a change. Naive I though hey they killed Ursan, so it can't be that bad. Fast enough I discovered that the only groups around are perma with cryers or similar bs. Sure, whatever - I can fit into those... but my God, this game became a drag.

Whats the point of all those supposed challenges if you just include cheat code to come with it? The whole concept of perma Shadow Form is just that - a cheat. How can one enjoy game by cheating all the way is beyond me.
On a flip side, we have a player base degraded to unbelievable lows due to the use of cheats. The story of joining perma group became a story of watching people fail at basic things. Its all about lowering standards. Once you did that, people suddenly became bad... and I mean BAED. All the idiocy and arrogance surfaced, because playing with 3 skills on your bar does not require anything more.

And why all this? Just so somebody could farm supposedly rare items all day long? Screw that, I already have a job, I don't need another one. I want entertainment of playing.

Well anyway...
Dear ANet, please kill Shadow Form. Kill and bury it. Skills like this should never exist.

You need to realize that alot of the people playing GW don't give a shit about your "supposed" fun. In truth, people care about getting the rarest weapons as fast as possible, which is why the voltic spear gone from rare to bullshit in such a short amount of time. People try everything they can to get the items they want with the least amount of effort, they don't give a dam to as they are having fun or are slaves of the game.
(Sometimes the problem can be solved if you are in a well organized guild with active people. But in general, if you want to play in an elite area, 9 chances out of 10 is that you are gonna have to play a farming build.)

I do agree with you, but Anet shouldn't go as far as to nerf SF completely, but to reduce the time so that even with deadly paradox, glphy of swiftness and the such, there will always be a 10 second gap between SF becomed ended and SF recharged. This way, SF is still useable, but the 10 second gap requires people to use their brains, instead of acting like living slaves of the game.

ryan__ryan · Dec 25, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

If you guys are so pissed off at stupid brainless pugs join or form a knowledgable and dedicated guild/alliance to avoid pugs all together... Also about SF... Why is there so much hate? It's a skill that can benefit your group in pve... I don't see any monsters permaing! Bottom line, if you want to avoid stupid ppl that can only play in cryway groups join a guild and cmon SF is a skill that will benefit your team!!! Now stop fighting!!!!!!

Unreal Havoc · Dec 25, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

It's not Anet's fault that the playerbase felt the need to create these gimmick builds.

Yes it is, it was Anet that updated skills to make Shadow Form maintainable in the first place. Had they of not done so then players wouldn't have created said gimmick builds.

It's amusing how the once hated Assassin seems to be a requirement for playing just about any elite area these days via perma Shadow Form. If you think there's nothing wrong with that then I suggest you go and learn what game balance is.

The fact here is that builds such as these have killed any sort of accomplishment that could have been gained from completing what is supposed to be a challenging and hard area to beat. I remember once when I could say "Wow, completing Underworld last night was a real accomplishment for us" nowadays it is nothing more than a notch on the bedpost in the Hall of Monuments and has killed any point to these so called elite areas existing in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan__ryan

If you guys are so pissed off at stupid brainless pugs join or form a knowledgable and dedicated guild/alliance to avoid pugs all together... Also about SF... Why is there so much hate? It's a skill that can benefit your group in pve... I don't see any monsters permaing! Bottom line, if you want to avoid stupid ppl that can only play in cryway groups join a guild and cmon SF is a skill that will benefit your team!!! Now stop fighting!!!!!!

You really think an "Elite" area should be so easy to complete by a random group of people? It's not even teamwork, its just a bunch of people running about soloing stuff with invinciblity. I'm in a guild that does FoW and UW often, and can quite easily avoid PuG's, but you're missing the point entirely.

A11Eur0 · Dec 25, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Nowhere did he impose upon this very thread that one should not be allowed to enter an area whatsoever. He merely brought up the statement that when people can clear areas given the title, "elite", within a time span of thirty minutes and taking use of such a low skill level, a problem emitting there is.

Low level skill? What is a low level skill, the "elite skill" shadow form?

There is no "low level skill" unless you're talking about mending or healsig. It's how you use it. If you take advantage of game mechanics to profit, that's just how it is. Perma-shadow form is no different from a 55 monk or 600/smite duo. They're all effective in specific areas and are both just as fragile, Shadow Form is actually more fragile than 600/smite because it's one spell that needs two other skills to maintain and really has no cover. 600/smite is a bunch of enchantments that work together but you can survive if one of them drops, for at least one or two hits depending on the enemy you're fighting. Each has its downsides...daze and enchant removal for the 600 and PBAoE, enchant removal, touch skills, traps for the perma. Both require near-constant attention to survive.

The only difference is Perma SF doesn't require a second player/character to be effective. A 600 monk can survive forever against the mobs it's designed for, but needs the smiter to kill anything. Now, SF permas can kill things solo but not easily anymore, requiring consumables.

It's funny how people who are usually claiming "lol pve, c-space with heroes and it's done" are now claiming that these builds are removing all skill from PvE elite areas. Irony.

I'll say it again: it was the players' choice to use these gimmicks. You can't argue with that. If it's hard to find a group doing what you want to do how you want to do it, obviously you're in the minority. How hard is this to understand? Why, if more people want to use the gimmicks, should those gimmicks be nerfed? This game is all about the loot now. It's undeniable. That's why the only replayability in this game stems from farming for titles and getting the rare skins/expensive armor/rare minis/tonics. People want to remove the grind necessary to obtain these items, so they choose the fastest methods...enter gimmick builds.

This entire thread is a QQ-fest because you can't PUG shit anymore. My god...get over it and join a guild, and put it to rest. If you care about prestige of completing an elite area and having the bragging rights...you really need to get out more. It's a game. Games are meant to be fun. It's no fun when you have to form a group for a half hour to half-ass your way to a completion of an elite area. Which is the case if you don't run a guild group.

Unreal Havoc · Dec 25, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

It's funny how people who are usually claiming "lol pve, c-space with heroes and it's done" are now claiming that these builds are removing all skill from PvE elite areas. Irony.

It's funny you should say that because I dislike the addition of heroes aswell.

pumpkin pie · Dec 25, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

To answers the OP's question: Perma is the new PvE?

This is the answer: No.

The problem with players is, they only want to do what other players are doing. hence everyone flock to the end game "elite" dungeons farming for the exact same thing, thinking it will be so cool when they finally have the gear, and all the while doing that, they come to the forum and cry "WHY DOES ANET MAKE US GRIND" we want skill > time, we do not want to have to grind for "elite gear" like most other mmorpg, but they are doing it and doing it and continue doing it....